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This interview originally ran on February 7, 2018.
Were republishing it followingJoness death at 91.
(Thats what earning 28 Grammy awards and co-producing Michael Jacksons biggest-selling albums will do.)
But in person, the 84-year-old music-industrymacheris far spikier and more complicated.
Ive got nothing to be scared of, man.
The experiences Ive had!
he says, shaking his head in wonder.
You almost cant believe it.
You worked with Michael Jackson more than anyone he wasnt related to.
He stole a lot of songs.
[Donna Summers]State of IndependenceandBillie Jean.The notes dont lie, man.
He was as Machiavellian as they come.
How so?Greedy, man.
Greedy.Dont Stop Til You Get EnoughGreg Phillinganes wrote the c section.
Michael shouldve given him 10 percent of the song.
What about outside of music?
Whats misunderstood about Michael?I used to kill him about the plastic surgery, man.
Hed always justify it and say it was because of some disease he had.
How much were his problems wrapped up with fame?You mean with the way he looked?
He had a problem with his looks becausehis father told him he was ugly and abused him.
What do you expect?
Big Pharma making OxyContin and all that shit is a serious thing.
Its no joke.Whats your sign, man?
Its a great sign.
You just mentioned the Clintons, who are friends of yours.
Why is there still such visceral dislike of them?
Like what secrets?This is something else I shouldnt be talking about.
You sure seem to know a lot.I know too much, man.
Whats something you wish you didnt know?Who killed Kennedy.
[Chicago mobster Sam]Giancana.
The connection was there between Sinatra and the Mafia and Kennedy.
Toronto.I was atthe Massey Hall show.
The Charlie Parker concert with Mingus and those guys?Yeah, man.
I saw the contract after.
The whole band made $1,100.
Ill never forget that.
At the time it was just another gig.
Like with Woodstock, Tito Puente told me he wanted to go out to that gig.
Those festivals aint my thing.
Elon Musk keeps trying to get me to go to Burning Man.
But who knew what Woodstock would turn out to be?
Jimi Hendrix was out there fucking upthe national anthem.
Wasnt Hendrix supposed to play onGula Matari?He was supposed to play on my albumand he chickened out.
Toots was one of the greatest soloists that ever fucking lived.
You know, I met Paul McCartney when he was 21.
What were your first impressions of the Beatles?That they were the worst musicians in the world.
They were no-playing motherfuckers.
Paul was the worst bass player I ever heard.
Dont even talk about it.
He couldnt get it.
So he did, and we called Ronnie Verrell, a jazz drummer.
Ronnie came in for 15 minutes and tore it up.
Ringo comes back and says, George, can you play it back for me one more time?
So George did, and Ringo says, That didnt sound so bad.
And I said, Yeah, motherfucker because it aint you.
Great guy, though.
Were there any rock musicians you thought were good?I used to like Claptons band.
What were they called?
Cream.Yeah, they could play.
But you know who sings and plays just like Hendrix?
Who?Paul Allen.
The Microsoft guy?Yeah, man.
The rich arent doing enough.
They dont fucking care.
These other people dont know what it feels like to be poor, so they dont care.
Were the worst weve ever been, but thats why were seeing people try and fix it.
Feminism: Women are saying theyre not going to take it anymore.
Racism: People are fighting it.
God is pushing the bad in our face to make people fight back.
Weve obviously been learning more lately about just how corrosive the entertainment industry can be for women.
Women had to put up with fucked-up shit.
Women and brothers were both dealing with the glass ceiling.
But what about the alleged behavior of a friend of yours like Bill Cosby?
[Harvey] Weinstein.
Weinstein hes a jive motherfucker.
What about Cosby, though?What about it?
Were the allegations a surprise to you?We cant talk about this in public, man.
Im sorry to jump around Be a Pisces.
Ive been watching it a long time the 30s to now.
Weve come a long way but weve got a long way to go.
The South has always been fucked up, but you know where you stand.
The racism in the North is disguised.
You never know where you stand.
Whats stirred everything up?
Is it all about Trumpism?Its Trump and uneducated rednecks.
Trump is just telling them what they want to hear.
I used to hang out with him.
Hes a crazy motherfucker.
Limited mentally a megalomaniac, narcissistic.
I cant stand him.
I used to date Ivanka, you know.
Wait, really?Yes, sir.
Tommy Hilfiger, who was working with my daughterKidada, said, Ivanka wants to have dinner with you.
I said, No problem.
Shes a fine motherfucker.
She had the most beautiful legs I ever saw in my life.
Wrong father, though.
Would your friend Oprah be a good president?I dont think she should run.
She doesnt have the chops for it.
He doesnt know shit.
Someone who knows about real leadership wouldnt have as many people against him as he does.
Hes a fucking idiot.
Is Hollywood as bad with race as the rest of the country?
Are you still encountering that kind of racism?Its still fucked up.
It takes individual efforts like that to change things.
Is that really what you believe?
But every place is different.
When I go to Dublin, Bono makes me stay at his castle because Ireland is so racist.
Bonos my brother, man.
He named his son after me.
Is U2 still making good music?
[Shakes head.]
Why not?I dont know.
I love Bono with all my heart, but theres too much pressure on the band.
Hes doing good work all over the world.
Working with him and Bob Geldof ondebt reliefwas one of the greatest things I ever did.
Its up there with We Are the World.
Is there more to that story?It wasnt the rockers.
It was Cyndi Lauper.
She had a manager come over to me and say, The rockers dont like the song.
I know how that shit works.
And she was fucking up every take because her necklace or bracelet was rattling in the microphone.
It was just her that had a problem.
Whats something youve worked on that shouldve been bigger?What the fuck are you talking about?
Ive never had that problem.
They were all big.
How about a musician who deserved more acclaim?Come on, man.The Brothers Johnson.James Ingram.Tevin Campbell.
Every one of them went straight through the roof.
Not many people can do that.
I can make a band play like a singer sings.
Thats what arranging is, and its a great gift.
I wouldnt trade it for shit.
Music is strange that way.
Youve got to keep the ear busy.
[Hums the songs melody.]
Thats Coltrane done in a pop song.
Getting the young kids to hear bebop is what Im talking about.
Jazz is at the top of the hierarchy of music because the musicians learned everything they could about music.
Every time I used to see Coltrane hed haveNicolas Slonimskys book.
Yeah, he was famously obsessed with theThesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns.
Thats the one youre talking about, right?Thats right.
Youre bringing up all the good subjects now!
Everything that Coltrane ever played was in that thesaurus.
That book started all the jazz guys improvising in 12-tone.
Coltrane carried that book around till the pages fell off.
When Coltrane started to go far out with the music Giant Steps.
But when he was playing atonally No, no, no.
Even that was heavily influenced byAlban Berg thats as far out as you’re free to get.
Do you hear the spirit of jazz in pop today?No.
People gave it up to chase money.
When you go afterCiroc vodka and Phat Farmand all that shit, God walks out of the room.
I have never in my life made music for money or fame.
God walks out of the room when youre thinking about money.
You could spend a million dollars on a piano part and it wont make you a million dollars back.
Thats just not how it works.
Is there innovation happening in modern pop music?Hell no.
Its just loops, beats, rhymes and hooks.
What is there for me to learn from that?
There aint no fucking songs.
The song is the power; the singer is the messenger.
The greatest singer in the world cannot save a bad song.
I learned that 50 years ago, and its the single greatest lesson I ever learned as a producer.
If you dont have a great song, it doesnt matter what else you put around it.
What was your greatest musical innovation?Everything Ive done.
Everything youve done was innovative?Everything was something to be proud of absolutely.
Its been an amazing contrast of genres.
I didnt have to learn a thing to do Michael Jackson.
Producers now are ignoring all the musical principles of the previous generations.
Thats not the way it works: Youre supposed to use everything from the past.
If you know where you come from, its easier to get where youre going.
you’re gonna wanna understand music to touch people and become the soundtrack to their lives.
Can I tell you one of the greatest moments in my life?
Three generations of women said those were their favorite records.
That touched me so much.
Im trying to isolate what you specifically believe the problem with modern pop is.
Its the lack of formal musical knowledge on the part of the musicians?Yes!
And they dont even care they dont have it.
Well, whos doing good work?Bruno Mars.
I like where Kendricks mind is.
Andthe Ed Sheeran recordis great.
Sam Smith hes so open about being gay.
Mark Ronson is someone who knows how to produce.
There aint nothing new.
The producers are lazy and greedy.
How does that laziness manifest itself?Listen to the music these guys dont know what theyre doing.
Youve got to respect the gift God gave you by learning your craft.
Are you as down on the state of film scoring as you are on pop?Its not good.
Everybodys lazy.Alexandre Desplat hes good.
He was influenced by my scores.
Do you see a future for the music business?There isnt a music business anymore!
If these people had paid attention toShawn Fanning20 years ago, we wouldnt be in this mess.
But the music business is still too full of these old-school bean counters.
You cant be like that.
You cant be one of these back-in-my-day people.
You dont have to practice emotion because that comes naturally.
you might only get so far without technique.
People limit themselves musically, man.
Do these musicians know tango?
Maybe not the cha-cha.
[Marlon]Brandoused to go cha-cha dancing with us.
He could dance his ass off.
He was the most charming motherfucker you ever met.
Hed fuck a mailbox.
He slept with them?
How do you know that?[Frowns.]
Come on, man.
He did not give a fuck!
You like Brazilian music?
You know, I visit the favelas every year.
Those motherfuckers have a hard life.
Theyre tough, though.
You think our shit in Americas bad?
I read that as a young man you used to carry around a .32.Yeah.
Did you ever fire it?Yeah.
At what?[Grins.]
Okay, let me ask you a left-field question.
In your memoir, theres a section where you talk about Being a dog?
Thats not what I was thinking of, but yeah, thats in there.
I was thinking of a section where you describe having a nervous breakdown not long afterThriller.
Spielberg and me are still great friends, man.
Hes a great fucking guy.
I loved working with him.
I had to stay home and write an hour and 55 minutes of music for the movie.
I was so fucking tired from doing that, I couldnt see.
I put too much on my plate and it took its toll.
You learn from your mistakes and I learned I couldnt do that again.
Whats the last mistake you learned from?My last record[2010sQ: Soul Bossa Nostra].
That didnt happen.T-Pain, man, he didnt pay attention to the details.
Whats something positive youve been feeling about music lately?Understanding where it comes from.
Off the coast of South Africa, where Durban is, was the coast of China.
There are African qualities to Chinese music, Japanese music, too, with the Kodo drumming.
It all comes from Africa.
Its a heavy thing to think about.
Youre about to turn 85.
Are you afraid of the end?No.
What do you think happens when you pass?Youre just gone.
Are you religious?No, man.
I know too much about it.
I knewRomano Mussolini, the jazz piano player, the son of Benito Mussolini.
We used to jam all night.
And hed tell me about where the Catholics were coming from.
The Catholics have a religion based on fear, smoke, and murder.
And almost everywhere you go in the world, the biggest structures are the Catholic churches.
Its money, man.
On the subject of money, I have a crass question.
You spent the first half of your career working in jazz, which isnt especially lucrative.
When did you start to make serious money?When I started producing afterLesley Gore.
You know how they do; you know your country.
That syndication money is great, man.
I appreciate the shit I have because I know what its like to have nothing.
What about having a fractured family?
How did that change you?Same as with money, man.
I appreciate what I got.
How often do you think about your mother?All the time.
She died in a mental home.
Brilliant lady, but she never got the help she needed.
Her dementia praecox couldve been cured with vitamin B, but she couldnt get it because she was black.
What happened to her for kids, thats a bitch.
Whats the most ambitious thing you have left to do?Qwest TV.
Everybody is excited about it.
Its going to be a musical Netflix.
Its the bestmusic from every genre around the world.
So if kids want to hear something great, itll be right there for them.
I cant believe I still get to be involved in things like this.
I stopped drinking two years ago and I feel like Im 19 years old.
Ive never been so creative.
I cant tell you, man what a life!
This interview has been edited and condensed from two conversations.
